Instant Boats Message Boards

Doug, this not the article I was looking for, but it does have some good information about the PL Concrete Sealant being used in boat building.

http://www.simplicityboats.com/pl_premium.htm

All other articles I've read recommends that the PL Contrete Sealant be used for ONLY the filler for the boats seams. Not for construction!

Couldn't help noticing the reference to gorilla glue as epoxy. Just in case, GG is NOT epoxy.
Out of PL, Titebond, and Gorilla Glue, Gorilla tested out to be the weakest by one home experimenter.
Not trying to scare you, with the screws and glue the joints will be plenty strong.

Just wanted to make sure though.

That's a bummer, I only used it because Dynamite gave it high marks in his latest book. oh well, time will tell.

Edit - Yup, it's polyurethane but Dynamite gave it high marks in "Instant Boat Building", so I reckon we're gonna sail with it.

Two thoughts...

GT is 100% right... Gorilla Glue ain't epoxy, and there's nothing quite like epoxy for strength and ease of application. (If you check the homebuilt aircraft sites, there's little mention of using anything but epoxy for key structural components.)

I'm still mystified about the 52 degree angle issue... I think BoatManPaul got it exactly right... You'll need to cut the frame on the vertical at 38 degrees (tricky). {Or cut at 45 and then hand plane the rest of the way - that's how I'd do it}. I actually tested this and I think BMP was right on.

Alan

After seeing BMP's work and looking at mine, I would take his word for it. Not really sure what you mean by cutting on the vertical ( is that like what one does with a miter saw?) , what my Uncle told me was that if you cut a 38 degree bevel ( in a perfect world where the blade takes no material off, just makes a cut) you will have 52 degree waste. So flip the transom upside down, cut the 38 degrees with the angle of the blade going away from the transom like here, the waste will be the 38 degree angle and the remaining transom bottom will be somewhere around 52. At least that's what the man said.



Now me, I got no clue. Unc said that the blade would eat some wood ( they always do) and that I would have to fiddle around to get my 52 degree bevel. Two test cuts seemed good at 38 so I went for it. Unc was right about one thing anyway, 38 would not do it.

The fit is tight for about a half inch, then it drops off.

It seems right to me, but my experience with bevels and table saws is limited to the ones I just did. I am still reading stuff trying to figure it out. Determined not to take the bonfire option and put this sucker in the water. Small pond, good pfd, rescue/tender on hand... we shall see. wouldn't be the first boat than tried to leave me out there, would be the first one I built though...

Just had another thought ( which explains the burnt stench ) , it could also be that my cuts on the side of the hull were not perfectly accurate.


Thanks for that Bill, I am headed to Lowes tomorrow (today actually, later today it starting to look like) .... I am still googling around trying to figure out how all these big tortoises get built with saws that only go to 45........ Might just have to drop a note to Dynamite with my next order and see what he says. Yes, I shall do that and post it up. Because what I did didn't exactly look like perfection, and my infantile level of carpentry skills combined with a lack of shop class or any engineering training have me at a loss...

Hi Doug,

I think the issue about the 52 degrees stems around the plane the blade is cutting at... If the face is placed flat on the surface of the table saw you'll never get beyond 45 degrees. Try a few test pieces. However, if you run the board with it's wide face vertical and the blade set to 38 degrees, that will give you a board with a 52 degree angle relative to the edge of the board... I wouldn't do that because of the narrow margins between blade and fence and fingers. (I believe that's why BoatManPaul recommended a feather board and push sticks.)

Again, my solution would be to cut over size at 45 degrees, and then hand plane to 52 degrees and trim appropriately. That's literally a 5 minute process max.

Beyond that... Epoxy is a wonderful thing. It thrives in 1/8" gaps...

Hope this helps...

Alan

Hey Alan,

My neighbor, ( he was raised right down the road from Dynamite in Friendship) actually knows how to use the amazing plastic angle finding thingy in my toolbox. He measured my test cuts and they are more like 50 degrees.... hmmmmm.. That would explain the gap in the pics according to my fourth grade level of geometry competence.

Are you talking about a power planer? Going to Lowes today for PL, screws, clamps, and oddities. My small block plane seems to have left the compound without permission. Was going to replace it but might also look at a power planer. It's on my wish list along with a bandsaw and a random orbit sander.

Well, I have pretty much settled on getting the plans for Rueben's Nymph along with my copy of "Build the new Instant Boats" so I am just going to have to drop a note in there with my order concerning this bevel. My money is that Dynamite will tell me to cut it at 45 and plane it..... But if I get a response it will be posted.

I have tried to email a couple of folks who have "brick" pages, no love yet.

Anywho, it's off to Lowes for screws and PL and clamps and whaterver else I can't live another couple of days without.

Going to try and get the starboard watch their own gunwale if I get home from town in time. If'n I can remember camera batteries will post pics of some drawings to solicit some feedback...

Since there seems to be quite a bit of confusion about cutting the 52 deg angle, I though I would show how I would do it.

I have set the saw at 38 deg as shown on the saws indicator. I have positioned the magnetic indicator, to show degrees from verticle. Verticle being zero. (when I ran building component cutting saws, we always had to specify, as some saws indexed from verticle and others from horizontal.) By the way, if you use an indicator as shown, make sure that your saw is level before proceding. Shim the saw base if necessary so that the pointer reads zero before starting.



Here I'm making the cut on a piece of 2 X 3. Set the blade so it cuts through the lumber. I'll trim it to width later.



Now, with the board flipped over, I set the saw back to cuting verticle and position the rip fence so that the blade will cut at the point where the angle just cut meets the edge of the board.



Place the board with the wide side down and make the cut. The resulting piece could be used as is, but it's more than 3/4" (the width of a standard 1 X) wide.



Now set the saw 3/4" away from the fence and cut the board to the finished width. You can leave this a little wider if your saw cuts too rough and/or you want to sand everything smooth. Cutting this way will give you the piece of lumber cut as shown in the plans.


I hope this was, or better, will be helpful to the next person building a "Big Tortoise".

(Heads up... I was working on this while BoatManPaul provided the definitive answer. Way to go BMP!)

Hi Doug,

* As for the 50 degrees... If you saw is anything like mine, it can go past 45 degrees a bit. In general, I wouldn't worry at all about this... When I built the Sweet Pea peapod, I didn't get the deck flat and level like the instructions said, and as a result, the bilge/bottom panels refused to come close to fitting without warping the whole boat - what a mess. That thing was WAY off! Finally, the only way I could get the hull shape right was to commit a felony act of wood butchery on the joint with a skilsaw. I must have cut a 3/4" gash in the joint and then stitched the whole thing together, gash and all. When it came time to tape, there was no way to put in an epoxy fillet. (I might as well have been filleting the Grand Canyon.) So I backed up the slash with packing tape, pre-soaked, packed the beast with thickened epoxy goo and let dry. Then I smoothed and glassed per normal. By the time the inside tape was done, the outside tape was done, and the hull was sheathed it was as strong as a rock. It's interesting... I just finished building a model of the SurfMaster from the original Bolger plans... In them Phil shows a goo filled joint and recommends a min. of a 1/4" gap on a power boat... What you're looking at is small potatoes for a little rowboat.

* Power planer vs. bandsaw vs. rand. orbit. sander. Yee haw! Buy 'em all... Seriously, considering that you're going to want to build the "Yacht" someday, you'll probably need them all. but given the stage of the build you're in right now, I'd say the rand. orbit. takes the lead. Here's a hint for buying power tools or whatever... Go to Amazon.com and search on the tool... Bore down until you can sort... Then do separate sorts... One on "Best Selling" and one on "Highest Customer Rating" You're looking for a ton of good customer reviews. I'd take a close look at the Porter Cable 343k... (Be sure to read all customer reviews for your top candidates!)

* As for planes... I'm a lousy one to comment... I've got 'em all, and collect hand planes... Me, I'd just grab a sharp #2 plane and have at it after the initial table saw bevel. By the way, there are some amazing deals to be had on used hand planes on the Web... Nowadays, a tool is no derned good if you can't plug it in, slap a battery into it, or hook it up to an air compressor. Check out the following thread... http://www.instantboats.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1651&p=6058&hilit=piper#p6058

Alan

Paul,

It is quite a pleasure watching someone who knows what they are doing...accomplish something!

I know I learn something each and everytime you post information!!

I will make copies of the photos and the information you have provided today.

Thank you,

Paul, those pics are priceless for those of us who get confused talking to the cashier at Lowe's. Here are the pics of the protractor on the cut I made on my crash test dummy before butchering the transom. Thanks a bunch. When my number two son gets back from Cali we are probably going to be making him a boat, er um, I mean oversize rocking cradle for his new daughter and backyard bbq sideboard/bar... ( young married guys can have it really rough some times) We won't be using the flip it over and go for it method on his.





I was mistaken in the earlier post, my angle with the flip the transom face down and go for it method was actually a little fatter than 52.. In the future I will use the method shown in BMP's pics because that looks a whole lot more accurate.

Got back a little late to attach that starboard gunwale, so I am giong to try and dig a working scanner out of the techno closet and get scans of my seating arrangement and sail rig cave drawings up.

Edit - Bill, in a moment of weakness, I let one of my buddies who does not use a men's boat ( his has motors, cushions, and sparkle paint) talk me into 3M marine adhesive sealer - he happened to be in the same aisle. Seems that his bass boat had some draft issues and he found the only patch of rocky bottom in the state of Delaware. He thinks it's funny that I am making a boat, because I won't be able to run into stuff like I do with my inflatable. I told him his purple sparkled princess boat is first on my list of things to ram, so now not only do I have get this brick to work, have to put a sail on it so I can have the right of way in the ramming wars...... life can be so hectic sometimes.

Doug, 3M marine products are very good! Some are just a bit more costly than PL products.

Bill

It was a few dollars more, but with the things I have seen putting together this punt.... worth it. Apparently the bass boat crowd hereabouts swears by the stuff.

SCORE!!! sort of.. My father in law ( who happens to know everything ) got me a belated B-day present, a random orbit sander. He also subtly let me know his opinion of my craftsmanship by getting me the black and decker on clearance.. But hey! it seems to work, should get me through a boat or two.

Did manage to get the starboard gunwale cut, screwed, glued, and clamped this evening after all. I am going to let it set up good before I try to put the flying bow transom chine back on. Once we get there, it off the edge of the map as far as "Instant Boat Building" is concerned. The dream is to put the 3M sealer into everyplace we can imagine and few we can't, then try our had at glassing a dagger board or perchance a deck.

Hi Doug,

Congrats on that sander!

And when you're talking 3M adhesive... Do you mean 5200? If so take great care about not getting any on you... Once it gets a hold of something, it really doesn't want to let go! Cleanup can be a real bear.

Alan

Amen!

One of the nicest gift my wife has bought for me was a box of 100 each large disposable "Nitrile Latex-Free Exam Gloves" to wear while using glues or painting.

They are soooooo nice in keep the gook off my hands!

Just be sure and buy large or extra large because too small of a size is a bear to get on your hands!